We have been discussing haskomas with many rabbanim, however, based on the enormous amount of animosity and backlash against the Shabbos App – just remember that when Rambam introduced his seforim people labeled him an apikores and his seforim were burned in public – many of the rabbanim are hesitant to give a public haskoma on the Shabbos App.
Additionally, the most recent technological advancement in helping people merge technology and Shabbos/Yom Tov was met with massive protest when Rabbi Moshe Heinemann of the Star-K introduced the “Sabbath Mode”. The Sabbath mode enables people to change the temperature on their ovens on Yom Tov by pressing buttons on an electronic keypad.
In fact while Rabbi Moshe Heinemann is a great talmid chachom and understands electricity and mechanics better than all the rabbanim who came out against him, that did not stop them from disparaging him. You can see an English version of the Kol Koreh here. Unfortunately, the rabbinate at larger is not open to allowing technology on Shabbos even though it can be done in a permissible way, and anyone who tries to make a change is called all kinds of vile names.
This was not (yet) written about the Shabbos App, but rather about the Rabbi Moshe Heinemann Sabbath Mode:
In our opinion, use of “Sabbath Mode” to change the temperature of an oven on Yom Tov represents an assault on the sanctity of Shabbos and Yom Tov and will lead to deterioration in their observance. We hereby declare that one may not rely on “Sabbath Mode” operation to adjust oven temperatures on Yom Tov despite the presence of a Hechsher on these ovens.
To all of the above we affix our signatures:
HaRav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv
I have seen the lengthy words of the Rov that permitted the above and they are Halachically incorrect and it is clearly forbidden.
– HaRav Nisim Karelitz
There is no Heter for the above, nor will Grama accomplish here. I affix my signature, awaiting the redemption.
-HaRav Shmuel Wozner
Surely, surely one is obligated to protest this leniency with all our might. Such leniencies are a great degradation in the foundation of Shmiras Shabbos and those that are careful with the honor of Shabbos will bring an eternal Brocho upon themselves.
-HaRav Yechezkel Roth, Head of Karlsbad Bais Din
Aside from the actual prohibition, there lies herein a breach in the wall of Shmiras Shabbos and Yom Tov through which the Jewish nation is sanctified throughout the generations.
-HaRav Yaakov Horowitz, Rav ,Telz Minyan
-HaRav Elya Ber Wachtfogel
-HaRav Shlomo Miller, Rosh Kollel, Kollel Avreichim Toronto
-HaRav Yechiel Tauber, Rosh Kollel Mechon L’Hoyroa, Monsey, NY
-HaRav Gershon Bess, Rav Kehilas Yaakov, Los Angeles
There are still rabbanim we are working with who are still open to giving a haskoma, especially with the recent changes we made to the app, which makes it comply with more poskim and shitos than before. However, they too want to take some more time to see how things “play out” in the media, etc. before putting their career on the line.
In the interim we plan to produce a source sheet explaining how the app works and going through all the possible problems so a person can see for themselves that the Shabbos App complies with halacha both technically and in spirit. Of course this does not mean that a person’s personal rabbi will agree, but a person should ask their rabbi why he feels we are wrong and then see if that answer makes sense or not.
Remember, that it took many years and lots of courageous people who ignored their rabbanim sweeping child molestation under the rug under the guise of halacha, before many rabbanim finally agreed that going to the police is the only way – and right way to get help. Of course there are still some pig headed rabbis who will tell people it’s assur and then even enable molesters by saying its assur to go to the proper authorities, foolishly assuring people that they will take care of it.
Today, with most people getting a full Yeshiva education and being much more knowledgeable of halacha than in the past, people need to be able to separate the real halacha from the phony halacha that many rabbanim feed people in an effort to maintain a Yiddishkeit that say feel (wrongly at times) is authentic. When smart people see the facts they are able to know when the rabbi needs to be listened to and when not.
It is part of our greater goal to enable people to see the that the True Torah they way the HaShem gave it is not nearly as restrictive and cumbersome as some people have been misled to believe it is. HaShem gave us the Torah to enjoy, not to be suffocated by it.
While I believe that your entire efforts are ill conceived , your negativity against our rabbinic system will do you in.
Heshy,
The current rabbinic system is a disaster!
So basically, a bunch of reshaim who want to make some money, are comparing themselves to the Rambam. Quite appropriate.
If you are truly interested in helping improve a system that you feel needs help , try writing in a more dignified manner .
I don’t see how this acceptable.
A few points:
1. By slagging off our Rabbi’s and there believes won’t help you get them to change their minds.
2. What is the purpose of the app – no where has it been explained.
3. Comparing a so called ‘Shabbat Friendly app’ to child molester (when referring to listening to the Rabbinut) is highly inappropriate. They are very different situations with no relevance to each other.
My apologies for being so negative about it.
number 1) you are full of nekius after all the time and money you spent on this app and number 2) if you can speak against gedoila yisroel like that I would never trust your app to be al pe halacha.
and one thing your missing is that the concept is completely wrong.
Z,
The purpose of the Shabbos App is to enable people to communicate on Shabbos so that they can arrange to get together, see how people are doing, etc.
Efraim,
We are not “speaking out against Gedolai Yisrael” rather we are demonstrating how they have a very strong attitude against changing the status quot – even though they are wrong. Clearly the Sabbath Mode by Star K is permissible to use, and yet people can see how they responded to it. People need to be able to see the truth for themselves.
What makes you so sure that “Clearly the Sabbath Mode by Star K is permissible to use”? There’s a difference of opinion and that’s it. If you read Rav Heinemann’s Tshuva and understood it you would realize that that arguments against the heter have nothing to with lack of knowledge of electricity and mechanics as you suggest. And as other people mentioned there is a concept of uvda dchol and kavod shabbos that can make something assur even if otherwise mutur al pi halacha. For example, while many allow the use of shabbos clocks and timers set before Shabbos, Rav Moshe Feinstein was very against this since there is a lack of kavod shabbos. You are free to follow those poskim that say this is mutur but don’t say everyone else is wrong.
The only VALID opinion is Rabbi Heinemann’s. If you listen to his shiur and read his teshuva you will see that he is 100% correct and those who oppose him are 100% wrong. They base their “psak”on lack of understanding and just being stuck in their concept of Shabbos with zero basis in halacha. Like we have said many times, unfortunately, the rabbinate at large, except for a few courageous individuals is veryt much stuck in keeping Klal Yisrael in the dark – literally.
I have listened to the shiur and read the tshuva a number of times. You have all the right to follow his psak. Like you said he is a big talmid chacham and someone that can be relied on if you so choose. But to say eveyrone else is “wrong”, including a number of gedolei hador, is not appropriate. Ailu V’ailu Divrei Elokim Chaim. If you have a valid haskoma, hechsher, psak, whatever, then great. You have to the right to follow who you like. And no one can stop you from making this app or promoting it in the right way. But to say everyone who assur’s is wrong is completely out of line. The same for other people to say you’re wrong. Again, assuming it’s true that you have valid haskomos. We don’t have to agree and follow the same psak but there’s no place for denouncing the other opinion as being “wrong”.
YG, you are correct in what you say that according to the Chazon Ish the Sabbath Mode is not permissible. So, if klal Yisroel really followed the chazon Ish regarding electrical circuits you would be correct. However, here is where you are wrong.
According to the Chazon Ish if you make a circuit on Shabbos you are violating an issur of Boneh and Soser. Now, if you ask Tzomet or Institute of Science and Technology they will confirm that according to the Chazon Ish it is prohibited to be in a room that has an air conditioner as your body heat will directly cause the compressor to turn on.
They suggest that if one follows the Chazon Ish that one should set the AC to coldest temperature and attach to a timer so that it goes on every 15 minutes so that your body heat will not cause it to go on. You can read this in Shabbat & Electricity by Rabbi Dovid Oratz for Institute for Science and Technology published by Feldheim.
Now, I ask you, how many “choshiva rabonim” who were very fast to assur Rabbi Heineman’s Sabbath Mode, walk into a room where an air conditioner is on?
It;s called intellectual dishonesty, not eilu v’eilu, unless your idea is that eilu v’eilu means that we can apply the Chazon Ish when it suits us, and ignore (the same psak) when we find it convenient. That sounds a bit like reform to me.
And i quote: “When smart people see the facts they are able to know when the rabbi needs to be listened to and when not.”
because it really is such a tragedy when people have pure faith in daas torah and adhere so valiantly to the torah command “lo sosur min hadovor asher yorucha yomin usmol” which the talmud darshens “even if your rabbi says right is left or vice versa you are obligated to accept that as reallity”
I quote further: “It is part of our greater goal to enable people to see the that the True Torah they way the HaShem gave it is not nearly as restrictive and cumbersome as some people have been misled to believe it is. HaShem gave us the Torah to enjoy, not to be suffocated by it.” yes, because the way people kept shabbos before the invention of this app or even smartphones is utterly stifling I mean ‘come on’ this degree of abstinence is just suffocating how can one stand living 25 hours without their smartphone in fact it’s a blind miracle that the jewish nation as a whole has kept the faith for 3500 years without smartphones or shabbos apps
these are just a couple of points that have not yet been raised but i’d like to give my full ‘haskomo’ to every previous comment
Avrumi Hersh, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of “lo sosur min hadovor asher yorucha yomin usmol”. This does not refer to a single Rabbi or even “Da’as Torah”. This specifically is regarding a statement from the Sanhedrin. Today, nobody has that power. “Da’as Torah” is a newly invested term, you will not find it mentioned anywhere, in a sefer that is more than 60 years old. This became a way for certain Rabbi’s to exert their view, claiming Da’as Torah. There are many opinions and so who decides what is Da’as Torah. This varies very widely from Modern Orthodox to Chasidish.
On a last note, mos will agree that Rav Moshe was the “Poseik Hador” in America. So why is it that peopel have no problem ignoring his psak about not using Shabbos clocks or not listening to music, I can give you plenty more….
Maybe we should not use lights, air conditioning, refrigerators, hot plates, etc on Shabbos, as those items were definitely not used on Shabbos by our ancestors….
there is a machlokes haposkim regarding time clocks on shabbos Reb shlomo zalman auerbach (another posek hador or godol hador as we would call him) is matir
and even were one not allowed to set a timer for the aircon or hotplate or lights or refrigerators then oy rachmono litzlon how would we last a shabbos it’s suffocating that’s what it is!
But much more concerning is the absence of the holy smartphone on shabbos for one to abstain 25 hours without that is just suicide!
And i quote: “Today, nobody has that power. “Da’as Torah” is a newly invested term, you will not find it mentioned anywhere, in a sefer that is more than 60 years old. This became a way for certain Rabbi’s to exert their view, claiming Da’as Torah.”
How could any believing jew dare challenge the status of our gedolei hador every chassidish litvish or modern orthodox jew has only awesome reverence of Reb moshe feinstein for instance or Reb Elyashiv ZT”L (mentioned above in the authors signators) who could have the impudence to suggest they exert their view claiming da’as torah
why do you believe in torah she’bal peh (the oral law) bichlal it was just some pig-headed rabbis way of stifling us and keeping us in the dark
after all what is da’as torah “v’ho’om la’asos katov b’eyneyhem” let everyone do whatever they want after all no recognition of da’as torah just means no recognition of mesorah, rabbinic authority and (ultimately shabbos itself which is deeply rooted in torah shebal peh)
anyone who believes such things is nothing but a ba’al ta’ava who can feel good breaking shabbos on their smartphones and does not have to bear the consequences all he needs to do is discredit the power the torah gives to our leaders and he’s free to do as he wants
Torah Sh’Ba’al Peh, is not anything that spews from any person who we call a rabbi’s mouth. Moshe Rabeinu was given a written and oral set of laws. If some people today who go by Rabbi (even though there is no halachic legality of being a rav without semchicha from Sanhedrin) say something that can not be backed from an earlier source it does not make it binding or Sh’Ba’al Peh.
There are some minor disagreements about applying Da’as Torah to non-Halachic questions. But everybody agrees that Halachic issues need to be decided by the Halachic decisors. And it is apparent that you agree with this as well, being that your web site has this precise page called “haskamos”.
Mr. Goldstein, please pardon my purely rhetorical questions:
Where is your haskama from Rabbi Heinemann for this app? Are you unable to reach him for his halachic and hashkafic opinion in regard to this product? I have a hunch he actually has a lot to say about it.
I have a few requests:
Please don’t pose as an arbiter of halachic matters between the most brilliant halachic minds of the last three generations.
Please don’t talk disparagingly about any of the Gedolei HaRabbanim.
Most of all, please don’t lecture anyone else about intellectual honesty.
Did you just compare the Shabbos App to child abuse and molestation? Even merely using that as an example to justify your project is very distasteful. One is dealing with life and death issues, the other is a cell phone. Please.
Simcha,
Our point was not to compare the issues, but rather to demonstrate that unfortunately, many times the rabbanim are behind the times, and that in the same way that there are askanim who are always riling up the rabanim to assur things the “The Big Event w/ Lipa” we need regular people to be able to separate the real halacha from the baloney.
The shabbos-switch got great haskomos, they were just as controversial as you. That basically invalidates your whole argument
Michael,
That is not quite accurate. Almost every single one does not say that one may use it for Shabbos. If fact the most credible one they have from HaGaon HaRav Yehoshua Neuwirth, where apparent he originally allowed it to be used on Shabbos, according to KosherSwitch he retracted it, probably after all the “kanoyim” found out about it. You can read more about it here. http://www.kosherswitch.com/live/halacha/truth#Neuwirth
Additionally, they gathered haskomas, etc quietly, once our news broke it is harder to get rabbi’s involved who want to put there name on it. Why not ask your rabbi if he would give a haskomah to Kosherswitch?
Last, unfortunately the “Gedolim” are surrounded by “askanim” who rile them up and feed them all kinds of drivel influencing their decisions, and sometimes making them look like fools, like by the “Big Event with Lipa”
You seem to be implying that you created the app and then tried to get “rabbi’s (sic) involved”. Is that true? I would have hoped that anybody creating something this Halachically complex and Hashkafically explosive would have received his Haskamos in advance. Otherwise, how do you know that what you’re doing is wise and correct?
We are working with several rabbis who guide us on the requirements of the halacha, these people are very knowledgeable in halacha and technology, but do want want to be officially involved as they do not want to get attacked.
You have been claiming this app is compliant to Halacha from the get go ,yet you continually change things to attempt to try to get closer to Halacha .
My problem is the hubris in which you defend your position while degrading the rest of the Halachic World. Please read article by Rabbi Ari Kahn on matzav.com.
The truth is you won’t listen to others because you are stuck on a bad idea that your invested in. You continue to fight instead of pulling back and rethinking this entire idea.
This idea will ultimately fail .We all have been involved in some bad ideas but one has to know when to give up their dream. I believe there is an old country song supporting this “You have to know when to fold em ”
Rabbi Heshy Blumstein
Rabbi Heshy Blumstein,
If you read Rabbi Kahn’s article you will see that he does not argue on the halachis issue “The technical, micro-halachic considerations that would either support or prohibit the use of this app, based upon an examination of the inner workings of the app itself or the device on which it would operate, are beyond the scope of this forum.” Rather, he makes a case why it is good to disconnect. That’s fine for those who do yet there are many who want to be connected at all times, and that is the choice we need to give people.
Can you stop with this shtuyot if you really broght a tshuva to see than fine but ur talking hot air in mean time
” Rather, he makes a case why it is good to disconnect”
Thank you for validating Rabbi Kahn’s opinion .
If it’s good to disconnect , why to you feel we have to give people the choice to make bad decisions ?
Please highlight the section of the Kol Koreh that disparages R’ Heinemann. From the parts you quoted it seems like the Rabbis disagree with him strongly but I find nothing there that belittles R’ Henemann.
I think anyone reading those Kol Koreh’s would not think that they are no attacking him. Read them again.
Oy yeridos hadoros. I don’t profess to be the ultimate tzaddik but this is just awful. Kovod shabbos down the tubes. Besides for the actual nitty gritty Halacha issues which you have split way too many hairs on for any truly observant Jew to be comfortable with. Just take the sentence “I want to use my phone on shabbos”. If you’re comfortable with that then there’s some yiras shomayim issues that need to be taken care of. How many electrical changes will you make in the phone companies’ circuitry? By using WiFi in your house, you’re causing your router’s data lights to blink. By using 4g, you’re causing the phone companies routers lights to blink, and since they mostly have fiber obtic cable trunks, which send data through glass cable with laser light impulses, you’re causing those lights to blink.
The app will only work on the phones internet and wifi is not enabled when the Shabbos App is active. There is no problem causing little LED light to blink. Many people have alarms with sensors on Shabbos, and while they may shunt (deactivate) that zone, or turn off the alarm, the sensors will still blink their indicator lights,according to most poskim this is ok.